Thoughts after first game?

Thoughts after first game?

Postby Troy » 31 Jul 2017

Two friends and I got together to play a 600 pt game.

All three of us have been playing That other game with WWII minis that just got updated. We're used to both its 3rd and 4th ed rules, as well as several other major game types. All experienced gamers.

Here are the gathered thoughts:

1. That's a LOT of charts to be looking up.

2. in an Open Fire order, why do we have to spot twice (once for each round of firing) in that order. If we see them the first time, why can we just shoot again without re-spotting?

3. Needs better organization on the weapon's stats tables... looking on one page for what type of truck the 2pdr portee is on, and it's movement rate, then on another chart for its gun properties. Collating this info into a more organized approach (All stats for that 2prd Portee in one spot). This means printing redundant info, as the same guns will be on different vehicles. Or, put all the weapons stats on the vehicle cards (the pull outs from the book, or the stand alone purchases.

this is, unfortunately, one area the other game has great organization of their data.

4. A mortar can knock out a tank in artillery fire? Yep, takes a six, then another roll, but two tanks (Crusaders) went down to a mortar barrage. Did we screw it up?

5. Do AT guns (and tanks) have a rate of fire of 1 with AP shells? HE gives a higher rate of fire. Not sure if we missed a stat/rule somewhere, or if AT guns really only fire one round per shooting action (2 for Open fire order)? Weren't some AT guns faster rate of fire?
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Chris S » 31 Jul 2017

Away from home and my copies of the books so from memory .....

1. All are on the QRS. The Vehicle Cards, or pen and paper, can be used to consolidate equipment data prior to play.
2. There is a full page of explanation in the new rulebook and in several threads here. Briefly the turn is considered to have duration, with time elapsed between each engagement of the target which will have readjusted it's immediate positioning and use of cover during the lacuna. The need to respot also reflects the presence of smoke.
3. See 1 above.
4. Yes they can, as they did historically.
5. No weapon, when using direct fire (you mention AP ammo)), has a rof. One shot per order, so max two per turn, three if using a loader team and you pass the test.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Piers » 31 Jul 2017

1 - All the charts, are on the quick reference sheet.

2 - If I'm shot at once... I'm gonna move. If I'm a target I'm not going to standstill and be shot at a second time...

So yes, you roll to spot twice as people don't tend to stay still when under fire.

3 - Datacards are available.

4 - Yes mortars can (with some luck as they need to direct hit and then roll high for penetration) knock out armoured targets.

5 - AP Aimed Fire is 1d6 to hit.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Mark » 31 Jul 2017

Troy,
It does get quicker. The more games we have played the less "other game" statistics we remember - they seem to be replaced with BG ones now. I have several pages tabbed in my rulebook - orders, indirect, and morale. The only one I consistently now need to open the rulebook for is when we draw special chits. I have not played enough to remember the vehicle breakdown chart too. :grin:

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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby dead1 » 01 Aug 2017

The double spotting rule makes perfect sense given a battlefield is not static. It also allows you to plink at two separate units!

With regards to mortars, yep they can take out tanks. And don't just think penetration with turret blowing off. Think about track damage (mobility to kill), optics damage, shrapnel severing/damaging components under weak armour on engine deck etc. There was an action in Normandy where a trio of Jagdpanthers wiped out a column of Churchills. The Jagdpanthers were located by British forces. They were abandoned, having suffered track damage in an artillery strike.

A tank's a complicated bit of kit and there's many types of damage that will knock it out.


As for the charts, the only one you end up referring a lot too is the vehicle AP one and even then you'll know most results for most commonly used vehicles and guns.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Troy » 01 Aug 2017

On reflection, most of our confusion was trying to figure out HOW to fire with different types of weapons...

Suppressing fire with MGs vs closed top AFV? yep, you can. Just have to be close enough.

Trying to figure out the flow of how to shoot which kind of weapon at what targets with which type of fire has been interesting... too much of the other game to unlearn. Then we have to get the flow of the steps and charts.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Joe » 01 Aug 2017

Troy, as an "other game" player I know what you mean as far as unlearning old rules and habits. BG has a much different flow to it but I will say once start to get comfortable with it (after 3 or 4 games) it a much more rewarding system tactically with more variation since it revolves around charts and not just a simple D6 + Stat. I have a few learning videos posted on our youtube channel that might help with ironing out some questions or issues you might have. Give the game another try or two and give your verdict after things settle in a bit. For me that first game was a vastly different experience compared to the 3rd or 4th.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Mark » 01 Aug 2017

Joe wrote:Troy, as an "other game" player I know what you mean as far as unlearning old rules and habits. BG has a much different flow to it but I will say once start to get comfortable with it (after 3 or 4 games) it a much more rewarding system tactically with more variation since it revolves around charts and not just a simple D6 + Stat. I have a few learning videos posted on our youtube channel that might help with ironing out some questions or issues you might have. Give the game another try or two and give your verdict after things settle in a bit. For me that first game was a vastly different experience compared to the 3rd or 4th.


I would second this opinion.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby dead1 » 02 Aug 2017

My best advice to enjoy Battlegroup is to forget about the game aspects and immerse yourself in the sense of historical combat it provides.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby wolflord » 02 Aug 2017

My first game took ages, looking up all those charts and getting the rule details right. Second game was much faster, as i already know most charts results without looking them up.

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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Greebs » 02 Aug 2017

Battlegroup was the game that introduced me to the concept of 'Throw the Dice, we'll figure out if it's worth checking the tables after we see the rolls' :lol:
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Treadwell » 10 Aug 2017

Greebs wrote:Battlegroup was the game that introduced me to the concept of 'Throw the Dice, we'll figure out if it's worth checking the tables after we see the rolls' :lol:

I have been at BG along time and the idea of "eye-balling" the rolls is second nature the most common phrase is if its a 6 or 7 we'll look it up.
The spotting before all aimed fire is a vital mechanic in the game. If you change it you change the nature of the game. Persist and enjoy a game with a good flavour of WW2 and were each game creates a memorable story. Keep going
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby fred » 16 Aug 2017

As a fairly new player I would echo Troy's comments about the number of charts and the stats.

I found it was worth spending some time getting the stats of a force together before the game - as otherwise you spend a lot of time looking up different stats. I'm sure as you play more you get to know stuff - but there is a lot of info, and it is spread around a number of places. Its all logically placed in the book, and each bit is clear, but as a whole you do need to flit around. I even went as far to build a simple database so that I could print a single page stat sheet with all the stuff for a vehicle together.

And there certainly a lot of tables - yes they are all on the QRS - but it takes a while to understand the flow. My mate put together a version of the QRS with coloured arrows to try to make it clearer which tables are used for which type of shooting. We were thinking of adding the special chit effects to the back of the QRS as they always seem to need looking up.

I'm sure for you guys who are very experienced in the game this stuff is second nature. But as newbies is not straight forward.

I found it worth the effort to persevere - but the entry barrier is quite high.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby rovens » 16 Aug 2017

This isn't the first comment about charts...but there's only 3 or 4 that you use often.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby wolflord » 19 Aug 2017

rovens wrote:This isn't the first comment about charts...but there's only 3 or 4 that you use often.

No wonder, as charts are "oldfashioned" today. But half of them you know by heart after a few games.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Troy » 12 Sep 2017

About the charts:

After playing several games, and doing some quality time with the rules for my WWPD articles, the charts are easy once you get the rules.

The problem is that I've come at BattleGroup from another game system or two, and I'm still thinking IN their BOX... Dropping that mental set of rules is the challenging part.

Some of the Bolt Action players drifted through the club yesterday. My friend and I were playing Team Yankee, but we started discussing WWII games. My friend, who has played ONE BG game pointed out "there's a lot of charts" ... which turned off the Bolt Action players.

So I pulled out the rule book and showed them the QRF chart.

"Oh, heck! That's a lot easier than Advanced Squad Leader" was their reply.

So I'll echo what others have said in this thread:

Learn the rules. That's the tough part.

Figure out what you're doing via what kind of order you gave that unit

Look at the chart for that action (are you firing? which type of fire? Suppressing fire... find that chart.)

About half of the charts are easy to memorize. The other half are either common use or seldom use charts. Learning which one you need when isn't hard after you get the rules figured out.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby desertraider » 12 Sep 2017

its like all rule sets after two or three games most of the stats are in your head no need to keep referring it becomes almost automatic especially if you use the same armies.

to me fog of war is important history shows us that many war-game's don't but this set of rules is the best I have come across to give that FOW feel.

Of course all rulesets can be tweaked based on historical scenarios based on player agreement, I live by the philosophy that "rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" a quote from some dude, however if I play a scenario with well known historical issues like lack of ammo no fuel etc I tweak the rules to sit.

It would be interesting to here your thoughts after a few more games
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Brodir » 12 Sep 2017

"rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
Douglas Bader

That is a great quote, consider it stolen. :good:
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby dead1 » 14 Sep 2017

desertraider wrote:its like all rule sets after two or three games most of the stats are in your head no need to keep referring it becomes almost automatic especially if you use the same armies.

to me fog of war is important history shows us that many war-game's don't but this set of rules is the best I have come across to give that FOW feel.

Of course all rulesets can be tweaked based on historical scenarios based on player agreement, I live by the philosophy that "rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" a quote from some dude, however if I play a scenario with well known historical issues like lack of ammo no fuel etc I tweak the rules to sit.

It would be interesting to here your thoughts after a few more games


There is also gamer culture. I found people were less willing to tweak with rules and home brew scenarios (or even non standard scenarios) if they exclusively played bigger games ala 40K or FOW. However players playing other systems seem more willing to muck about with the rules.
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Re: Thoughts after first game?

Postby Untergefreiter » 14 Sep 2017

Think that's because those systems tend to be played by players who want to win. The joy of gaming is less important. So you need strict rules for that competition. One point that drove me to BG actually.
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